The Lawsuit About the Indian Child Welfare Act That Isn’t About the Children
In This Episode
Fellow
Crookedian Rebecca Nagle joins to talk about Season Two of “This Land.”
From the “boarding schools” of the 19th century to the good intentions
of the Indian Child Welfare Act — and the big money campaign to repeal
it.
podcast link
excerpt:Ana Marie Cox: What you’re telling me, Rebecca, is that there’s money to be made.
Rebecca Nagle: There’s a lot of money to be made. There’s a lot of money to be made.
Ana Marie Cox: [laughs] There’s surprisingly,
there’s deep pockets because there’s deep, you know, dough on the other
side. But I just wanna repeat back to you what I think you said just
because it’s fascinating. And I think I want to make it really clear.
There is some talk, there is some reason that is somewhat about this
case is about kids. OK, fine. But if you dig deep, what you are seeing
is an attempt to establish precedent, to undo almost everything that
exists to protect tribal sovereignty.
Rebecca Nagle: If the Supreme Court took this case
in the broadest way possible and decided it based on the broadest way
possible, it would absolutely set that precedent. And it’s interesting
because you already see some people making that argument in other areas.
So people are already, people have tried and are already making this
like kind of like equal protection, race-based argument in other areas
of federal Indian law. And some people are even doing it based on this
case. And so I don’t think we have to, like, take a wild stretch of the
imagination to see the broader implications of it. And then what I want
to add is that I actually, I actually do think, and this was something
that I was surprised by, that some people are fighting ICWA for
ideological reasons. And that ideology is that our country should not
have laws that are race conscious, should not have laws that are
remedies to structural racism. And the thinking behind that is that the
way to solve racism is to stop talking about race and to pretend like it
doesn’t exist. And so when you look at the people who are attacking
ICWA, a lot of them have also fought things like affirmative action. You
know, it’s some of the same players that were behind the Abigail Fisher
case and now the Harvard case. You know, we talked about the Voting
Rights Act, it’s some of those people. And I think there is this really
deep ideological divide, which I think in some ways is kind of
intellectually dishonest because we can see all the ways that systemic
racism in the child welfare system exists, but any effort to remedy that
is what is unfair. [laughs] I think one of the things that’s very
telling about this lawsuit is that they’re trying to get rid of
something and not trying to build something different. I think if you’re
concerned about children in foster care, there is a lot of reason to be
concerned about the well-being of children in foster care in the
country right now. You know, and there’s also a lot of reasons to see,
you know, there’s a lot of evidence that ICWA actually does a lot of
good. And so, yeah, I think if their end-goal was really helping Native
children, they would be trying to build something, not trying to destroy
something.
Ana Marie Cox: So when I look at this case and your
podcast and what I’ve learned, the case is itself about both children
and the ability of non-Native people to adopt Native children in a echo
of the boarding school, you know, system a little bit, that echoes—not
the same! But it’s Echo. And it’s about who controls the resources in
Native land, Native sovereignty. You know, you can’t oppress a people,
just, you know, but, just in culture or just in economics, it’s both.
It’s always both. You’re always, your oppressing in both these both
these lanes. And it made me start to think about reparations. Which we
talk a lot about in terms of slavery. But I really hear so much less
discussion when it comes to Indigenous people. I mean, hardly any. I
think I’ve talked to one person about it. But this case raises it for
me, because it’s talking about the most precious resources you have in a
community, which is the children, and who were taken.
Rebecca Nagle: Yeah. And I think, you know, when I
interviewed Native leaders, one thing, one thing that more than one
Native leader said to me was, you know, if we can’t protect our
children, then what can we protect? You know, if we can’t, if we can’t
keep our children, then then what else do we have? Yeah, and I think
when it comes to what justice looks like for Indigenous nations, you
know, the slogan or the hashtag or what will you, but the thing that
people are talking about a lot right now is Land Back. And I think that
looks like a lot of different things. And so, you know, Under Secretary
Deb Haaland, she’s trying to make the tribes putting land back in trust
easier. There’s been some proposals that national parks or national
forests should be returned to the stewardship of Indigenous nations. And
I think it’s also restoring sovereignty over the land that we have that
is recognized and really creating a legal reality where tribes, the
inherent rights of our tribes to govern our land, to govern our
citizens, is recognized. And right now, what we have in the United
States, thanks in large part to the Supreme Court, some things that
Congress has done, but mostly the Supreme Court, is that that’s
piecemeal. And so when you look at civil jurisdiction, criminal
jurisdiction, the right of law, the right of tribes to do everything
from taxation, to arrest somebody, from speeding, for speeding it, it’s
very complicated. And I think what we need is a full restoration of
tribal sovereignty and tribal jurisdiction on tribal land and also
restoring land to tribes. And my last thought, not to be too meta, but I
think, you know, as our country faces a growing ecological and climate
crisis, you know, I think that restoration of tribal sovereignty is
going to be critical for all of us, and is what is best for all of us.
You know, there’s the statistic that Indigenous people globally control
about like 5% of the land in the globe, but protect 80% of biodiversity.
And so, you know, Indigenous peoples, we really have the knowledge of
that stewardship that is so desperately needed right now.
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